some faraway beach
08 November 2017 19:26:05

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


 


 


There was only one good snowfall for the south in the 2010/11 winter cold spell. This fell in early dec dumping up to 6 inches of proper powdery snow even here on portsea island. 



I beg to differ. Sunrise at the solstice 2010, 5 miles south of Taunton, during the mid-to-late December, once-in-a-lifetime snow-on-snow wonderland :



I'd be astonished if we ever saw pre-Christmas snow-on-snow like that ever again. I shouldn't think anyone alive had ever seen it that early in the season that far south before.


Still, there's some really unusual stuff in the model output this year all the same. Just look at the ECM height anomalies at day 10. The deeper the reds and blues, the greater the departure from what usually prevails. And those reds to our north and blues to our south give a hint that we have a chance of some really early cold shots this year.



2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.
Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.
Tim A
09 November 2017 09:48:23

A year ago today.    Another fall a week later, but this was as good as it got all winter.   


 



Tim
NW Leeds
187m asl


lanky
09 November 2017 11:26:47

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 


 


 


There was only one good snowfall for the south in the 2010/11 winter cold spell. This fell in early dec dumping up to 6 inches of proper powdery snow even here on portsea island. 



There was only one here in the South East but it was later on in the month on the 18th December.


It would seem that each of the December 2010 snowfalls was quite local so different areas got their deepest snow on different days


In London, the only ever red weather warning was for this event which was very sudden giving a covering around 10cm in about 1 hour on a Saturday lunchtime. May remember it as the one that closed down Heathrow Airport



Martin
Richmond, Surrey
roger63
09 November 2017 12:12:10

SUMMARY – TEMPERATURE: For November-December-January above-average temperatures are more probable than below-average temperatures. Overall, the probability that the UK-average temperature for November-December-January will fall into the coldest of our five categories is between 10% and 15% and the probability that it will fall into the warmest of our five categories is between 30% and 35% (the 1981-2010 probability for each of these categories is 20%). CONTEXT: Sea surface temperatures in the tropical Central and Eastern Pacific have now fallen close to La Niña thresholds. Long-range prediction systems indicate this cooling is very likely to continue in the coming weeks, leading to a full La Niña event over the next few months. La Niña slightly increases the chances of blocking patterns over the North Atlantic and Europe in late autumn and early winter, leading to increased chances of colder-than-average conditions. The Quasi-Biennial Oscillation (QBO), an oscillation of the equatorial winds in the stratosphere, is in an easterly phase. The QBO is linked to conditions over Western Europe during late autumn and early winter through an influence on the phase of the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) at the surface. An easterly phase of the QBO tends to moderately increase the chances of a negative phase of the NAO, which in turn increases the chances of below-average temperatures. Sea surface temperatures in the North Atlantic are generally above average, consistent with the current high levels of warmth globally. West of the UK, however, temperatures are slightly below average. Nevertheless, warmth beneath the ocean surface, which is expected to have an increasing influence on surface conditions as the period progresses, favours higher-than-normal temperatures for the time of year. For November-December-January as a whole, long-range forecast systems generally show an increased chance of westerly air flow over the UK, although some show more likelihood of high-pressure patterns over the North Atlantic implying a greater likelihood of northerly or north-westerly winds. Overall, the outlook shows increased chances of above-average temperatures in the 3-month period (see figure T2). Despite this, the risk of colder-than-normal conditions remains a significant possibility, with some of the drivers of UK winter weather, such as La Niña and the QBO, favouring weather patterns associated with colder-than-normal weather.


Thought it worth pasting the full METO contingency forecast for November to January.


They come down on the warmer than average side but with  a significant possibility of colder than normal.


Overall I would still go for an NAo+ winter.

Bolty
09 November 2017 12:18:26

Originally Posted by: Tim A 


A year ago today.    Another fall a week later, but this was as good as it got all winter.   


 




Your post highlights quite an important point though. HLB blocking and cold conditions for the UK in November doesn't in any way mean that the winter itself will follow suit. It could well be that should the models come to fruition, that could be the coldest spell of the season.


Still, that's not a write-off by any means though, haha. It's just a word of caution for the winter lovers.


Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
Solar Cycles
09 November 2017 12:43:48

Originally Posted by: roger63 


SUMMARY – TEMPERATURE: For November-December-January above-average temperatures are more probable than below-average temperatures. Overall, the probability that the UK-average temperature for November-December-January will fall into the coldest of our five categories is between 10% and 15% and the probability that it will fall into the warmest of our five categories is between 30% and 35% (the 1981-2010 probability for each of these categories is 20%). CONTEXT: Sea surface temperatures in the tropical Central and Eastern Pacific have now fallen close to La Niña thresholds. Long-range prediction systems indicate this cooling is very likely to continue in the coming weeks, leading to a full La Niña event over the next few months. La Niña slightly increases the chances of blocking patterns over the North Atlantic and Europe in late autumn and early winter, leading to increased chances of colder-than-average conditions. The Quasi-Biennial Oscillation (QBO), an oscillation of the equatorial winds in the stratosphere, is in an easterly phase. The QBO is linked to conditions over Western Europe during late autumn and early winter through an influence on the phase of the North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) at the surface. An easterly phase of the QBO tends to moderately increase the chances of a negative phase of the NAO, which in turn increases the chances of below-average temperatures. Sea surface temperatures in the North Atlantic are generally above average, consistent with the current high levels of warmth globally. West of the UK, however, temperatures are slightly below average. Nevertheless, warmth beneath the ocean surface, which is expected to have an increasing influence on surface conditions as the period progresses, favours higher-than-normal temperatures for the time of year. For November-December-January as a whole, long-range forecast systems generally show an increased chance of westerly air flow over the UK, although some show more likelihood of high-pressure patterns over the North Atlantic implying a greater likelihood of northerly or north-westerly winds. Overall, the outlook shows increased chances of above-average temperatures in the 3-month period (see figure T2). Despite this, the risk of colder-than-normal conditions remains a significant possibility, with some of the drivers of UK winter weather, such as La Niña and the QBO, favouring weather patterns associated with colder-than-normal weather.


Thought it worth pasting the full METO contingency forecast for November to January.


They come down on the warmer than average side but with  a significant possibility of colder than normal.


Overall I would still go for an NAo+ winter.


Its a cover all bases analysis based on climo statistics from the last 30 years. The warmer oceans had no influence during the winter of December 2010, or 09/10, the bolded bit is the actual overall thoughts on what may or may not happen.

Shropshire
09 November 2017 13:17:10

That full summary is certainly worth reading again and again - it's as close as the METO are likely to get to acknowledging the modern era.


From December 27th 2020, zonality will be banned from mixing with the UK. We appreciate that this may come as a shock to younger people and old Uncle Barty. This ban will last for a minimum of ten days.
Solar Cycles
09 November 2017 13:22:39

Originally Posted by: Shropshire 


That full summary is certainly worth reading again and again - it's as close as the METO are likely to get to acknowledging the modern era.


Like I said it matters not when you can still get winters like above. ๐Ÿ˜‰

LeedsLad123
09 November 2017 13:39:19

Originally Posted by: Tim A 


A year ago today.    Another fall a week later, but this was as good as it got all winter.   


 




I completely forgot about that snowfall! Very early in the season too.


Whitkirk, Leeds - 85m ASL.
David M Porter
09 November 2017 16:49:52

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


Like I said it matters not when you can still get winters like above. ๐Ÿ˜‰



Well said SC- tell it like it is.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
roger63
12 November 2017 20:00:44

Given the current model output and the METO  30 day having a blocked outlook blocked surprised there is not more activity on winter prospects.I notice however that the latest 30 day concludes with possible return of westerlies by the end of the period.

Andy Woodcock
12 November 2017 21:31:40

Originally Posted by: roger63 


Given the current model output and the METO  30 day having a blocked outlook blocked surprised there is not more activity on winter prospects.I notice however that the latest 30 day concludes with possible return of westerlies by the end of the period.



That's the problem, lastNovember was full of early snow, frost and winter promise then followed by a drab winter even more boring than 1992.


Andy


Andy Woodcock
Plumpton
Penrith
Cumbria
Altitude 435 feet
"I survived The Mega Bartlett Winter of 2015/16 With My Mental Health Just About Intact"
Retron
13 November 2017 07:32:41

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 


That's the problem, lastNovember was full of early snow, frost and winter promise then followed by a drab winter even more boring than 1992.



Down here it was a damp, relatively mild month with two frosts at the end. The winter that followed was completely forgettable.


Truth be told, I'll be going into this winter with pretty minimal expectations - and that's despite things like low solar activity, Atlantic SSTs and the easterly QBO being in place! With all the blocking that's been in the forecast recently, I'd have been hoping for a smattering of -10 850s at the end of the runs, but there's been nothing.


One thing I've learned over the years is that if you expect nothing of any note, you're not going to be disappointed.


 


Leysdown, north Kent
johncs2016
13 November 2017 15:14:23
So far, this month has been very dry and sunny here in Edinburgh and in fact, we have already had more sunshine at Edinburgh Gogarbank during this month than the average for the entire month of November which means that whatever happens during the rest of this month, this month will officially go down as a sunnier than average here in the final statistics. With the way that things are going, this could well end up being the sunniest November on record here and with there still being not all that many signs of much in the way of significant rainfall in this part of the world, this month could also end up being one of the driest Novembers on record here in Edinburgh, if not the driest November on record, especially at the botanic gardens in Edinburgh where there has only been 5.8 mm of rain recorded during this month so far.

In terms of the temperature, our minimum temperatures are running a bit colder than average now, but our maximum temperatures are still running a bit warmer than average and when you balance everything out, you could just say that the overall temperatures during this month are around average during this month so far. If we want cold weather, I would rather be getting that during the winter. However, I have just been looking at things in the stratosphere which suggest that this is completely at odds with what is happening lower down in the troposphere. Quite often during the winter, we will often talk about the possibility of a stratospheric warming event and how that might increase the chances of colder weather further down the line if that percolates down into the troposphere and the reason why we talk about it in those terms is because in recent winters, we have been tending to start from a position where the tropospheric conditions have been more in favour of mild, wet and stormy weather.

In those circumstances, we would say that a SSW event doesn't always percolate down into the troposphere which leaves the possibility that tropospheric and stratospheric conditions can conflict with each other. In this scenario, we would have a troposphere which is still favouring mild weather conflicting with a stratosphere which is now favouring colder weather. What we have just now though is the exact opposite of that because at the moment, we have a cold stratosphere which is favouring mild, wet and stormy weather whereas the troposphere is still continuing to favour colder and drier conditions. Just as it is possible for a SSW event to percolate down into the troposphere and send us into a colder pattern of weather later on, I would assume that it would therefore be equally possible for the current cold stratospheric conditions to percolate down into the troposphere and send us into a much milder and more unsettled pattern of weather.

Of course, that might not necessarily end up happening so that just because we have that cold stratosphere doesn't necessarily mean that we won't get a cold winter in the end. However, our chances of getting a cold winter are surely not as good now as they would be if the stratosphere was much warmer. Because of that, it wouldn't surprise me if despite all of those other global factors (La Nina, the easterly QBO etc.) being in favour of us getting a cold winter, whatever small amount of cold weather which we get during this month ends up basically, being our "winter" just as what happened last year (that is also the exact opposite of what happened here six months ago when that really good weather which we had in May ended up being more or less, it for our summer). I can only hope though, that this doesn't end up being the case.

The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
Solar Cycles
17 November 2017 16:50:22
If I was to issue a winter forecast now I would be going for a cold but mainly dry early start to December but becoming progressively milder as the month goes on with heights lowering around the pole. January continues mild and wet with a big Euro high and a strong PV over Greenland until around the last third of the month before things settle down somewhat but remain mildish with heights over France giving large parts of the country a fine back end to the month.

February starts fine, dry and mild but with heights transferring over to Scandinavia bringing colder weather to the south and east of the country whilst the north and west are more under the Atlanticโ€™s influence so milder and wetter here. All in all a rather pish poor winter for cold weather IMO.
speckledjim
17 November 2017 17:05:21

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 

If I was to issue a winter forecast now I would be going for a cold but mainly dry early start to December but becoming progressively milder as the month goes on with heights lowering around the pole. January continues mild and wet with a big Euro high and a strong PV over Greenland until around the last third of the month before things settle down somewhat but remain mildish with heights over France giving large parts of the country a fine back end to the month.

February starts fine, dry and mild but with heights transferring over to Scandinavia bringing colder weather to the south and east of the country whilst the north and west are more under the Atlantic’s influence so milder and wetter here. All in all a rather pish poor winter for cold weather IMO.


 


I'm sure your guess is as likely to be true as anyone elses......i'm hoping that whoever guesses it will snow and be cold is right but that feels like wishful thinking


Thorner, West Yorkshire


Journalism is organised gossip
Solar Cycles
17 November 2017 17:09:47

Originally Posted by: speckledjim 


 


 


I'm sure your guess is as likely to be true as anyone elses......i'm hoping that whoever guesses it will snow and be cold is right but that feels like wishful thinking


Only if it’s right ๐Ÿ˜ 


Hopefully it isn’t and we see record cold and snowfall. ๐Ÿ˜Ž

Chunky Pea
17 November 2017 17:25:54

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 

If I was to issue a winter forecast now I would be going for a cold but mainly dry early start to December but becoming progressively milder as the month goes on with heights lowering around the pole. January continues mild and wet with a big Euro high and a strong PV over Greenland until around the last third of the month before things settle down somewhat but remain mildish with heights over France giving large parts of the country a fine back end to the month.

February starts fine, dry and mild but with heights transferring over to Scandinavia bringing colder weather to the south and east of the country whilst the north and west are more under the Atlantic’s influence so milder and wetter here. All in all a rather pish poor winter for cold weather IMO.


This sounds more like a summary of the last few Winters SC. I sometimes can't tell if you are being jocular or not. 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Solar Cycles
17 November 2017 17:29:25

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


 


This sounds more like a summary of the last few Winters SC. I sometimes can't tell if you are being jocular or not. 


Its just a wild guess looking ahead using what the fairly useless long range models are hinting at coupled with past moderate Nina patterns and how warm the Atlantic is right now. 

Chunky Pea
17 November 2017 17:32:39

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


Its just a wild guess looking ahead using what the fairly useless long range models are hinting at coupled with past moderate Nina patterns and how warm the Atlantic is right now. 




Sounds like the usual fair so. Roll on the switch in the AMO index. Just another 5/10 years to wait. 


Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
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